Curse

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 06, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Okay, fair enough. I'd like to have another attempt at that title again, you'd rather have another attempt at those quests.

I don't care about LDoA on my main. Would be a nice discussion though, yet this thread is to discuss changes to the Survivor Title.

But here we come to the point. On the surface, we are talking about one simple title track, but when we propose a change such as this, using these arguments, then it necessarily becomes more about the overriding theme of why we need the change, as opposed to just changing one title. The overriding theme I get every time this subject is presented is the theme of fairness - IMO a valid point.

As I said, most of my Tyrians are original, and when I first heard about the title, I was a bit put off - primarily because of the fairness thing. Here was a title that I couldn't get on any of my current characters - how unfair. But after I thought about it, I realized that it didn't really matter - because of the way I approach the game, there is nothing I would have done that much different had the title existed from the beginning. So I didn't worry about it any more - I simply saw it as another goal to reach for future characters.

But if we are to discuss changing the title to ignore those lost opportunities, then this thread really shouldn't be about just the title, but should be about the fairness of allowing players to have second shots at those things they missed that they would love to be able to have a chance at getting, especially when we use the terms of fairness.

Therefore, to be fair, if we are to allow second shots at Survivor, because "we did not know about the title", then that absolutely must include LDoA for the same reason. Plus we also must look at the other things in the game that might not be fair either in the same general terms:
Festival Hats, mini-pets, region specific promotional items, special code key items (such as magazine specific promotional items), limited time or promotional quests, etc. Each of these things can be considered for change using the same argument we are here just for the LS.

Yawg dismisses the B-day minis because he has yet to see the argument as a whole. It's not the point that minis could be bought. But the fact that (for argument's sake), because I deleted characters prior to the knowledge of the minis I permanently lost a chance to get one of the minis at no additional cost or investment of time on my part. What does it take to normally get a B-day mini? Log in with a character who reaches a certain age and make sure they have a free inventory slot. Double-click the present and presto - mini-pet. All of five seconds of time, and no gold spent. Now, in order to gain the same number of minis lost to deleted characters, how much time and gold do I need to invest? More than I think is fair when all I want is a shot at getting the same chance I would have had I not deleted those characters, especially considering the cost of gold and green minis.

Getting Survivor on your Tyrian characters is simple - delete, re-roll, and replay. If the time invested on those characters is more important, then so be it. My time invested in advancing through the game with my characters is more important than having to farm to get minis I should have gotten for free with no additional time invested. If we are to allow you to get Survivor without having to sacrifice your time vested, then why should I not be given the same opportunity to get minis without having to sac my own time vested as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Yet, I've never played a game where death actually mattered. If you fall in a pit in a Mario game, tough luck, just try again. That's how I treated GW too. No, I'm not rushing in to get me killed intentionally, but if me dying actually turns out beneficial, I won't hesitate to get myself killed.

However, would I have known about an impeding title I could obtain without dying once, I'm sure my stance would've been entirely different concerning 'taking one for the team'.

But yet again, death in and of itself does not meet the parameter for successful completion. It gave your team a second shot at completion, it does not impede Mario from another chance at completion, but in order to reach the success parameter, it comes down to being able to do so without dying. Continually dying prevents forward progress, and until you avoid death, you cannot continue onwards.

Your sacrificing may have saved your team, but that is the key for both arguments here. If you didn't sac, what would have happened? The team would have died resulting in failure. Therefore your individual death prevented failure, but it still did not meet the parameter of success since, had the rest of the team died, the team would have failed, therefore as a whole, death still does not meet a parameter for success. At least one person on your team would have still have needed to avoid death to have any shot at succeeding in the goal.

And here we have one of purposes of the title, stated by Gaile herself (in a discussion on this topic shortly after the titles were implemented). LS was created much in the same mold as LDOA. I forget her exact words, but I do remember she mentioned an example very similar to yours in terms of achieving the title. In terms of your example, you had the choice to sac or not. You obviously state that you would have had second thoughts about sacing had you known about the title and had a shot at it. In that case, it seems then it is a moot point. You either sac to give the team a chance at suceeding, or you don't and probably end up failing the goal, which means death in any event, and the loss of the title anyway.

Hanok Odbrook

Family Draconis · Mar 06, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

/unsigned

If the survivor title is really that big of a deal to you then you should just start a new character. There are tons of titles out there and plenty more that require even more grinding than survivor. Even if anet changed this title to act between deaths that would mean that once you die you'd have to start grinding from zero again. Finally, the term "survivor" implies that you're good at NOT dying in the first place. I don't see much point in changing the title. If they were going to change it, I'd say it should be based on the number of kills you have, but that would be such an obscene amount of kills that it wouldn't even be worth it.

Perkunas · Mar 06, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

This thread was started in Oct 2006. Nothing has changed. Apparently, what you see is what you get.

Survivor = not dead yet

MithranArkanere · Mar 06, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

The only important point here is how the game has been changing.

They changed the skill gems for skills that you learn one and have available forever. No more regrets for skills.
They changed the attributes so you can change them in outposts anytime you want without restrictions, no more regrets for attributes.
They change equipment so you can upgrade them as much as you want after acquiring it, no more regrets for those items.
They changed hats so you don't have to store them, you get them once, you can create then anytime, no more regrets for those hats.
It's all about 'no regrets'.

They kept making changes so you don't have to make a new character if you already have one of that profession.
Survivor, LDoA, appearance, returning to basic training areas and make quests again are the only reasons to make another character in the game.

- LDoA is an exception, since it implies dying, so getting it should exclude getting Survivor ever, as getting survivor should exclude getting LDoA. That doesn't matter, since you will already have one title.
- For basic tutorial areas, the Factions and Nightfall ones are quite little, and people may want to visit them again just for the sake of exploration. People can already uncover the Factions ones, so the only thing left would be a way to revisit the Nightfall one. Prophecies doesn't count, since it doesn't add to cartographer and letting people there from the future would make more trouble than good.
- For appearance, almost everyone agrees with changes in hair, a lot of people for skin tones, and some people even would like to change face, height and even gender... we already know the problems with that. And we already have word about it.
- Retry quests would be really good, in some cases even for 25% rewards or just for XP or reward tokens rewards at all, for people that help friends with their quests, they could also take those quests again. That's debated in other threads too. My opinion is that Ascension should make the character more 'spiritual', allowing him even to change his body, since the character would be his soul and his knowledge, that is, his learned attributes and known skills. And everything else could change.

- Only thing left is Survivor. It's a title that anyone could have acquired, but not anyone can, because it has an outdated behavior. Unlike having a rule to reset and start again, it forces you to delete a character. And that's against what GW stands for. You don't 'prepare to play', you don't make another character if your current one went wrong. This is not one of those hack-and-slash games where you must decide a build before playing and starting to level, and you have to start again from scratch if they change skills in an update. You are free to make changes and choose anytime.

The best games let you retry anything.

Anthigital · Mar 06, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

If old characters really want the survivor then A.Net should just reset their XP, level, skills and quests and throw them right back to the beginning. That would be the fairest thing to do.

Hanging Man · Mar 06, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

/notsigned

Survivor, means you gotta survive. That's why this title is fun, because it is either you get it or you don't. Since it is a one time thing, makes me more conscience of my characters health and I am more aware of pulling and aggro.

Plus this new version would completely ruin the whole point of the Survivor title.

king_trouble · Mar 10, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Survivor is much easier than it was back when GW came out. At this point all you really need is EoTN and brawling.

Expherious · Mar 10, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

There are too many people whining "its not fair"
There are alot of unfair things in GW, get used to it.
+ you dont need it to max KoaBD.

Sakaliet · May 27, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

/signed

i have more than 22 maxed titles .. and i keep thinking to make a new char and farm all of this titles again for the survivor :S .. it will rly help us all to make it just a account base title .. or give the old char's a chance to restart the death counter

thx

Neo Atomisk · May 27, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Whats it matter? If you're going for GWAMM, it just costs an extra 1m or so to get it.
I'd like to try survivor again, but I didn't try on my warrior because I never knew about it.

/notsigned

Targren · May 27, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

/notsigned because there's no good reason.

*Cast's Verata's Gaze on thread and watches it eat everyone

Qaletaqa Hania · May 29, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

/signed

I have a Legendary Survivor, but would like it on my 4 year old ranger to. I won't cry if they don't give us the chance tho, s*** happens

.

Bristlebane · Jun 02, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Here's an idea then ...
You can reset your death count ONCE per character, but this also puts your character at level 1 with zero experience, everything else you keep:

+ Attribute Points from Attribute Quests.
+ Inventory, Armor, Weapons etc.
+ PVE Skills, just limit Kurzick/Luxon skills so they're locked until your level 20 again.

genofreek · Jun 02, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

Here's an idea then ...
You can reset your death count ONCE per character, but this also puts your character at level 1 with zero experience, everything else you keep:

+ Attribute Points from Attribute Quests.
+ Inventory, Armor, Weapons etc.
+ PVE Skills, just limit Kurzick/Luxon skills so they're locked until your level 20 again.

I would actually do this to get LS on my main. But how would the rest of the game work? Would I lose all my mapped outposts? Do I have to do all those missions and quests again? Did my carto title reset too?

Icy The Mage · Jun 02, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakaliet

/signed

i have more than 22 maxed titles .. and i keep thinking to make a new char and farm all of this titles again for the survivor :S .. it will rly help us all to make it just a account base title .. or give the old char's a chance to restart the death counter

thx

If you're making the survivor title account-wide, make LDoA account-wide too; some of us chose our main characters' "exclusive title" based on the decision of which one we'd like more.

Phoenix Tears · Jun 02, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

As ive written it months before this posting... again

/signed

those 2 titles should have been changed with the last big title-update, together with those other 3 damn grind titles sweettooth, party and drunkard...more about them later.

Survivor and LDoA belong to be Account Based, only this way both titles are handled fair for all.

That way all those people with too old characters just have to make 1 new Characters, which gets the title and the whole account would have it...

For LDoA the game needs a different solution, which is about its effort completely equal to the effort u have in pre-searing, with the difference, that players need also to have the opportunity to receive LDoA in the POST-SEARING!!

Example: Players should do in Hard Mode several "Master Quests", which should be found somewhere around post-searing Ascalon, which once all are done, lead the player to a very special not to the game story counting "EXTRA MISSION", which should be very very hard and which lets players gain the title, when they master that mission with ALL Bonusses accomplished...and the Mission would have far more than just 1 Bonus to accomplish in.

Once those things would be changed to the title, Survivor would be account based to solve its design problems and LDoA would have an post-searing alternative way to get that title to solve its design problems, which would surely also make alot more fun to get that way, than to do countless deaths just to reach level 20 in this damn tutorial !!!, which was NEVER planned/intended by the developers to let the players do that in that place and just accidentally works, becauses its a stupid gamedesign failure.
---------

About Sweettooth, Drankard and Party, those 3 titles have the EXACT same reasons, why they have to be changed into account based titles, like anet did with treasure hutner and with wisdom !!!

- They are damn grind titles
- to accomplish them, all u need is damn Gold, absolutely no Skill
- Its god damn annoying to be forced to use up all the stuff with the same character ever, instead of using with whichever character you want in the moment and the usage counts for the whole title as account based... no retarded storage swappings anymore of alcohol ect between characters then!!!
- the brainless drunkard title finally needs to get changed into POINTS, players also dont need to chew their sweets, before the point counts, we also dont need to watch our party stuff for a minute, before the points count.
This damn minute mechanic is just ridiculous and senseless compared to the other two grind titles !!

- Zaishen title needs to get either amount reduced to 10000 keys for max, or the points u receive for a key need to get doubled from 5 to 10... even with one of those changes the title would still cost for maxing it unbelieveable 50 Million gold !!! approximately (math made with keys costing 5 platin, ok keys got a bit cheaper meanwhile...lets say, it would cost then still 45 million gold after the change...)
Still alot of gold to accomplish first letting this title still be the biggest grind shit in the whole game!!! No other title costs more than that one...

What anet should also do is finalyl inserting titles, that the game could really need and make sense, like a god damn

QUESTING TITLE for all the Campaigns so 4 titles would this be, the 3 campaigns + the add on , so that players receive finally a good motivation to make all the quests of the game...

A Tamer title which counts for the amount of different tamed and maxed ranger pets

A Runner title (even this makes more sense, than such stupid grind titles, where u have nothing to do for, where all that is needed for is to be very rich in the game, so that u can buy you the title >.< such a shame that such titles exist in this games..titles must be earned..not bought !!!

A Monster Hunter title for the amount of killed monsters für every kind of monster race 1 so:

- Plants
- Demons
- Lizards
- Animals
- Birds
- Insects
- Amphibians
- Undead
- Elementals
- Anorganics (Slimes and such creatures)

collector title: for collecting mini pets counting account based each minipet of a sort once, that you own... so u have 100 pets for example based on 10 different pets each of them you have 10..so does for the title count only 10, because each of the different pets just counts to the title once !!

theres so much potencial in this game for more titles !!
---------

How ever, I dont believe in this game anymore, that anythign will change about those titles ... just let us all hope, that GW2 will receive far better thought out titles from the start on complete with no titles under, which are just only pure money Grind or have any game design failures, which cause the player to get forced to start completely a new character to have a chance to receive the title...

MithranArkanere · Jun 03, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

A one-time reset won't work.

ALL my survivors were lost, ALL of them, due to a lag spikes or disconnects due to blackouts or someone messing with the router that kept the whole party frozen for some time. I never let myself be killed or something like that.

A one time reset won't prevent deaths due to lag spikes. And if a lag spike comes again, that won't do, unless they make the game turn into invicible character that do not deal damage, don't take it and do not earn exp or get drops assigned while they are disconnected.

What I mean is that the only way to lose survivor should be being killed in-game for ONLY in-game reasons.

Xx Confuto Xx · Jul 10, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

/signed

If this change were to happen, it would hardly cheat anyone who gets LS these days because most LSers got their title by grinding brawling missions and being fortunate enough to not lag out or by just buying the title by leeching exp off of someones keg farm or something like that

Coast · Jul 10, 2009, 09:26 AM // 09:26

signed for survivor title, maybe keep our xp etc, but u must get like 10mil xp without dying

to make it fair compared with starting at a level 1 that needs like 1337500xp or something without gear and proper skills (normally)

Bristlebane · Jul 10, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agar

Account based LS and LDOA /signed

^ /signed

Ambrosia
Food of the gods. Double click to remove all death counts from this character. Cannot be dropped or traded. Can only get one Ambrosia per account through a epic quest involving The Five Gods.

Synthetic Ambrosia
Repeatable quest from Kerrsh after studying The Path to Revelations. Involves some expensive ingredients like Glob of Ectoplasm. Double click to remove 1 death count from your character. You will also lose 50000 experience. You cannot drop your total experience below 140,600.

Foul Synthetic Ambrosia
Repeatable quest from Kerrsh after studying The Path to Revelations. Involves some expensive ingredients like Glob of Ectoplasm. Double click to remove all death count from your character. You will also lose all experience past 140,600.

----
You would get both type of synthetic ambrosia from same quest, maybe at a value of 10-20k. Ambrosia cannot be dropped or traded, but you can put it in storage for use by any of your characters. Synthetic Ambrosia is tradeable as it's main ingredients is expensive rare materials. Value would end up similar. Foul Synthetic Ambrosia comes with a hefty price as it clears ALL experience past level 20.

I think purists who doesn't want to see changes to survivor title might accept Foul Synthetic Ambrosia. The experience between level 1-20 is easy to get in an hour so it really doesn't count. You would still have to make 1,196,900 experience to gain Legendary Survivor. Experience loss can be explained as causing some brain damage after taking synthetic drugs from an Asura dealer :P